
I have not posted in a while, so I thought I’d post this brief interaction with ChatGPT on the subject of consciousness as an epiphenomenon. The program, I have to say, is a smooth-talking bastard, but in a good way (a way that I like).
Incidentally, the image is created by ChatGPT (DALL·E 3)
I asked:
Is consciousness an epiphenomenon?
ChatGPT said:
The question of whether consciousness is an epiphenomenon is a major debate in philosophy of mind and cognitive science. An epiphenomenon is something that arises from a process but does not itself affect that process. In this context, the idea of consciousness as an epiphenomenon suggests that while conscious experience may emerge from brain activity, it has no causal influence on physical processes or behavior.
Here are the main arguments for and against this view:
Arguments for consciousness as an epiphenomenon:
- Causal Closure of the Physical World: In some forms of physicalism, all physical events are caused by other physical events, without any need for non-physical (conscious) causes. If brain activity alone explains all behavior, consciousness might be a byproduct without any causal influence.
- Redundancy of Conscious Causation: If all decisions and actions can be traced back to unconscious neural processes, conscious experience might be unnecessary for behavior. From this perspective, consciousness is like a “shadow” that follows brain activity but does not affect it.
- Phenomenal Experience Lacks a Clear Mechanism for Causal Influence: Some argue that since we do not yet understand how subjective experiences could influence physical systems, it makes sense to treat them as epiphenomenal.
Arguments against consciousness as an epiphenomenon:
- Intuition of Free Will: Many people intuitively feel that their conscious decisions affect their actions. If we experience a direct connection between thought and behavior, it seems hard to dismiss consciousness as a mere byproduct.
- Evolutionary Function: If consciousness were truly epiphenomenal, why would it have evolved? Consciousness seems costly in terms of energy and complexity, so evolution would likely not have maintained it unless it had some adaptive benefit.
- Quantum and Panpsychist Theories: Some alternative frameworks, such as certain interpretations of quantum mechanics or panpsychism, suggest that consciousness may play an active role in the fundamental processes of reality, challenging the view that it is merely a passive result of brain activity.
Conclusion:
The view of consciousness as an epiphenomenon remains controversial. It is supported by materialist frameworks that emphasize the sufficiency of physical processes for explaining behavior. However, opponents argue that this view overlooks the apparent causal role of conscious experience and fails to account for why consciousness would evolve in the first place.
What do you think about this? Do you lean more toward one side of the debate?
I replied:
1) Is not our intuitive sense of free will simply a lack of awareness of the underlying mechanisms that go into the formation of our will?
2) Evolutionary function? Is this not begging the question a little. Sure there is likely a cost to having consciousness, but this argument assumes the cost is too great. What is the cost of having consciousness as an epiphenomenon?
3) That consciousness might play a role in quantum phenomena does not necessarily mean it is not an epiphenomenon.
I am fairly agnostic on the matter, but I think it being an epiphenomenon might explain a lot.
ChatGPT said:
You’ve raised excellent points that push back on some of the common objections to the epiphenomenal view of consciousness. Let’s unpack them one by one in light of your questions:
1) Free Will as a Lack of Awareness of Underlying Mechanisms:
You’re absolutely right—many neuroscientists and philosophers argue that the experience of free will could simply be the result of us not being conscious of the underlying neural mechanisms that drive our decisions. Libet’s famous experiments, which showed brain activity related to decisions occurring before participants became aware of making a choice, support this idea. If our decisions are determined by unconscious neural processes, then free will might be more of an illusion, and consciousness merely “witnesses” the outcomes of these processes.
This view aligns well with epiphenomenalism because if conscious thought is a retrospective interpretation of already-determined processes, then it doesn’t play a direct causal role in our actions.
2) Evolutionary Function:
Your critique here is sharp. The argument that consciousness must have evolved because it has a function could indeed be seen as begging the question. It’s often assumed that because consciousness is costly (metabolically and neurologically), it must serve a function, but that’s not necessarily true. Evolution is messy, and some traits can emerge as byproducts of other adaptations, without having a direct adaptive function themselves.
For instance, it could be that consciousness emerged as a byproduct of the brain’s complexity, or as an accidental side effect of more complex forms of information processing. The idea of “spandrels,” used by Gould and Lewontin to describe non-adaptive traits that arise incidentally, is relevant here.
From an epiphenomenal perspective, the “cost” of consciousness might be minimal because it doesn’t do anything that directly affects survival—it just comes along for the ride. So, evolution may not have selected it for any specific purpose, but it wasn’t costly enough to be selected against.
3) Quantum Theories and Consciousness:
You’re absolutely correct again. Even if consciousness were involved in quantum phenomena, it doesn’t automatically mean it’s not an epiphenomenon. The involvement of consciousness at the quantum level might still be consistent with a passive role—it could be a witness or byproduct of these processes without exerting causal influence. Some quantum theories, like certain interpretations of the observer effect, suggest a connection between consciousness and the physical world, but these are speculative and do not necessarily refute the idea of consciousness as an epiphenomenon.
Overall View:
It sounds like you’re leaning toward the idea that the epiphenomenal view could provide an elegant explanation for a number of phenomena. It allows for consciousness to exist without requiring it to have direct causal power, sidestepping some of the challenges that come with explaining how subjective experience could influence physical processes. The “free will” argument especially seems consistent with epiphenomenalism, as our sense of agency could be illusory.
Being agnostic is a good position, especially since we don’t yet have a clear understanding of consciousness. Viewing it as an epiphenomenon might indeed explain a lot—especially how we can have conscious experience without needing it to be the engine behind our actions
Hello rom! It seems like you and I are still thinking about the same stuff after quite a few years. Once again, it seems you choose one intuition and I choose the contrasting intuition.
You are a monist, I am a pluralist. You believe only the objects of the hard sciences are really real. I believe that many kinds of things are real and useful to us. Consciousness is not just an epiph; it has many uses to us that are ontologically justified.
I think physicalism is a good but limited way to ‘understand’ things. To think now that physicalism is all that can be truly said is to overextend what has been actually accomplished. As most thinkers in my camp argue, there is a crucial ambiguity in our idea of “understand.” Prediction is not all there is. Prediction of what? The very idea of the things and their behavior that physicalists are “understanding” do not exist really from that point of view. It is a category mistake to think neurons totally explain consciousness, and that is a proposal that seems hard to ever refute completely.
There are many categories of things and their behaviors that do reasonably include ideas of consciousness, mental images, reason-based decision, purposive activity, and some form of free will. These categories of things have plenty of room to currently operate given anything but a dogmatic insistence upon some pure form of physicalism.
The idea of Evolution is itself a mixed, “meliorative,” idea, argues John Dewey and Dan Dennett among others. It walks us out of a world of only physical things into a world of greater diversity in real things with increased real capabilities. Included in those capacities is to “know” things, and “debate” their abilities, and use “evidence reasonably.” These are forms of behavior (categories of language) that scientists use in being scientists. (Do “scientists” really exist?) Different parts of conscious and purposive behavior can and will be increasingly associated with neural and physical events, but to take all initiative from the world seems a large stretch indeed. And for what purpose? As far as I can see, to maintain an allegiance to “hard science” and to an outworn idea of “being reasonable.”
I appreciate your agnosticism on many of these issues. They are very difficult, very challenging, and even kind of fun in a very serious way. I’m not sure either, but I, too, am still writing on my naturereligionconnection blog, WordPress. Thanks rom!
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Hi Greg
I don’t think you really understand my “monism”. For example, I would be happy to describe “tree” as a verb as opposed to a noun. A tree is a process. The tree involves eons of evolutionary processes. It involves, physics, chemistry. It involves interactions with the Earth and all its constituents. Our moon, sun, asteroids … you name it they all play their part. We can see this as oneness. A Buddhist take on this would be interbeing. Here is a scientific view:
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10866
Quantum phenomena point to the truth of this. Even Sean Carroll points out it is the universe that determines the probabilities of quantum events.
I have to go … I will try to reply later where I think you are wrong
All the best
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Greg … a few more thoughts before bedtime
physicalism to think neurons totally explain consciousness A strawman Greg. But if you think without neurons we have thought, you can show me your working on a postcard please. While in principle I am not against panpsychism I am suspicious of consciousness, that some put on a pedestal.
prediction Prediction is not all there is I agree. There is also a glass of red. Family, life, your football team and of course death. But if we are interested in accurate descriptions, the ability to predict is essential.
pluralism I am a pluralist. You believe only the objects of the hard sciences are really real No, I believe that my perception is a reflection (not necessarily accurate) of the world around us. The scientific method, allows us to escape the attraction of naïve realism.The problem with pluralism, is that it draws arbitrary (but useful) separations around objects (or processes) when in fact science tells us they are all connected. Of course the scientific method tries isolate all the different processes as best we can to try and understand them as best we can.
Good night for now.
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Sorry I inadvertently deleted your post … could not find a way to reinstate it. But here it is in pieces
I’m not sure but you and I may believe in a lot that is the same. I read the interbeing article., and need to read it again. It is very poetic, especially recommended by a chemist.
Not terribly surprising that we agree on some aspects of reality. Interbeing is a restatement of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination, which is a form of determinism.
One of my favorite philosophers calls his form of Idealism, Panrelationalism. All things flow into each other, but we stake out certain needs and perspectives to try to organize the interbeing into something useful at least for a while and for certain needs.
My take on this: as alleged individuals the principal access we have to reality is through our consciousness. So we tend to want to explain reality through consciousness.
It is true that our limited knowledge/perspective both clarifies and limits and thus falsifies how all things are one thing in some very, very, vague sense.
To show how how it falsifies all things being one, you will have to working … premises and conclusions etc. But if you read anything I said, you might understand it is more that all is one process.
Did you read my post “The truth is not out there.” id be interested in your reaction. It is prior to the one on the election in that Various Topics category.
I replied briefly
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