Epiphenomenon

4 thoughts on “Epiphenomenon

  1. Hello rom! It seems like you and I are still thinking about the same stuff after quite a few years. Once again, it seems you choose one intuition and I choose the contrasting intuition.

    You are a monist, I am a pluralist. You believe only the objects of the hard sciences are really real. I believe that many kinds of things are real and useful to us. Consciousness is not just an epiph; it has many uses to us that are ontologically justified.

    I think physicalism is a good but limited way to ‘understand’ things. To think now that physicalism is all that can be truly said is to overextend what has been actually accomplished. As most thinkers in my camp argue, there is a crucial ambiguity in our idea of “understand.” Prediction is not all there is. Prediction of what? The very idea of the things and their behavior that physicalists are “understanding” do not exist really from that point of view. It is a category mistake to think neurons totally explain consciousness, and that is a proposal that seems hard to ever refute completely.

    There are many categories of things and their behaviors that do reasonably include ideas of consciousness, mental images, reason-based decision, purposive activity, and some form of free will. These categories of things have plenty of room to currently operate given anything but a dogmatic insistence upon some pure form of physicalism.

    The idea of Evolution is itself a mixed, “meliorative,” idea, argues John Dewey and Dan Dennett among others. It walks us out of a world of only physical things into a world of greater diversity in real things with increased real capabilities. Included in those capacities is to “know” things, and “debate” their abilities, and use “evidence reasonably.” These are forms of behavior (categories of language) that scientists use in being scientists. (Do “scientists” really exist?) Different parts of conscious and purposive behavior can and will be increasingly associated with neural and physical events, but to take all initiative from the world seems a large stretch indeed. And for what purpose? As far as I can see, to maintain an allegiance to “hard science” and to an outworn idea of “being reasonable.”

    I appreciate your agnosticism on many of these issues. They are very difficult, very challenging, and even kind of fun in a very serious way. I’m not sure either, but I, too, am still writing on my naturereligionconnection blog, WordPress. Thanks rom!

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    1. Hi Greg
      I don’t think you really understand my “monism”. For example, I would be happy to describe “tree” as a verb as opposed to a noun. A tree is a process. The tree involves eons of evolutionary processes. It involves, physics, chemistry. It involves interactions with the Earth and all its constituents. Our moon, sun, asteroids … you name it they all play their part. We can see this as oneness. A Buddhist take on this would be interbeing. Here is a scientific view:
      https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10866
      Quantum phenomena point to the truth of this. Even Sean Carroll points out it is the universe that determines the probabilities of quantum events.

      I have to go … I will try to reply later where I think you are wrong
      All the best

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    2. Greg … a few more thoughts before bedtime
      physicalism to think neurons totally explain consciousness A strawman Greg. But if you think without neurons we have thought, you can show me your working on a postcard please. While in principle I am not against panpsychism I am suspicious of consciousness, that some put on a pedestal.
      prediction Prediction is not all there is I agree. There is also a glass of red. Family, life, your football team and of course death. But if we are interested in accurate descriptions, the ability to predict is essential.
      pluralism I am a pluralist. You believe only the objects of the hard sciences are really real No, I believe that my perception is a reflection (not necessarily accurate) of the world around us. The scientific method, allows us to escape the attraction of naïve realism.The problem with pluralism, is that it draws arbitrary (but useful) separations around objects (or processes) when in fact science tells us they are all connected. Of course the scientific method tries isolate all the different processes as best we can to try and understand them as best we can.

      Good night for now.

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  2. Sorry I inadvertently deleted your post … could not find a way to reinstate it. But here it is in pieces
    I’m not sure but you and I may believe in a lot that is the same. I read the interbeing article., and need to read it again. It is very poetic, especially recommended by a chemist.

    Not terribly surprising that we agree on some aspects of reality. Interbeing is a restatement of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination, which is a form of determinism.

    One of my favorite philosophers calls his form of Idealism, Panrelationalism. All things flow into each other, but we stake out certain needs and perspectives to try to organize the interbeing into something useful at least for a while and for certain needs.

    My take on this: as alleged individuals the principal access we have to reality is through our consciousness. So we tend to want to explain reality through consciousness.

    It is true that our limited knowledge/perspective both clarifies and limits and thus falsifies how all things are one thing in some very, very, vague sense.

    To show how how it falsifies all things being one, you will have to working … premises and conclusions etc. But if you read anything I said, you might understand it is more that all is one process.

    Did you read my post “The truth is not out there.” id be interested in your reaction. It is prior to the one on the election in that Various Topics category.

    I replied briefly

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